1+1=3
so here is an opinion poll: i have been struggling with this issue my whole life, its not essential to my salvation; however, i am curious. i was brought up surrounded by Calvinists but i still dont quite understand the whole predestination vs free will deal. i know i am not a robot, but i also know i am nothing without the grace of God interveening in my life. it was told to me many times growing up that i am a sinner. however i dont think God sees me like that because i am a new creation in Christ. i know i am sinful by nature, but i thought that nature died when Christ entered my heart. i know that God cannot be in the presence of evil and i believe the Holy Spirit is in my heart; therefore there cannot be evil in my heart. yet my “dead” self continues to put up a fight every day. that makes me feel like i am crucifying Christ over and over, everyday. i know i am a new creation, but why do i always still feel like a dirty sinner. the Bible often refers to Christians as Holy and saints. i know i am not better than any other human because we all have sinned, yet i know i am set apart by God. i was reading the velvet elvis by rob bell (good book by the way) and i couldnt get past this idea that Christ died for everyone; therfore everyone is forgiven, therefore even the people in hell are forgiven. which makes my head spin. does that mean Christ death did not conquer all? relative to these people in hell, was his death in vain? everything falls under Gods authority. where does free will fit into that– does God not have power over it? is everything already forgiven even if you dont accept it? is the only unforgivable sin to deny Christ? because if people in hell are forgiven, then what are they being punished for? seriously, when i read this i wanted to call the author (rob bell) and ask him to explain this because my head is about to explode. i think i just listed about 85 paradoxes. most of this has been brewing around my mind for years. because growing up i was pretty much surrounded by one opinoin that when i began to searchon my own things got really cloudy really fast. i have always had the gift of being open-minded and able to see things from multiple perspectives so this has been an adventure for me. i dont know if this is making any sense to you, but any thought, opinoin, verse, comment would be appreciated.
Eric,
Reading your post was really strange to me because I have been wondering the very same things for a very long time. I have never found anyone that could explain it or give me a different perspective that didn’t just confuse me more! I look forward to seeing what other people have to say about this.
Comment by Carisa Beezhold — September 11, 2006 @ 2:59 am
i found this interesting…
When a Calvinist says that all things happen according to the predestination of God, he speaks the truth, and I am willing to be called a Calvinist. But when an Arminian says that when a man sins, the sin is his own, and that if he continues in sin, and perishes, his eternal damnation will lie entirely at his own door, I believe that he speaks the truth, though I am not willing to be called an Arminian. The fact is, there is some truth in both these systems of theology.
Charles Spurgeon, quoted in Credenda Agenda, Volume 5 Number 2, Page 3, from Tom Carter, Spurgeon at His Best, Baker, 1988, p. 14
Comment by Eric — September 13, 2006 @ 7:00 pm
Hmm. Well, we do know that Christ died for all sins and those were paid for on the cross. But the truth is that for that payment to take effect for a person they have to confess and receive forgiveness for their sins. Think of Wal-mart, it has a ton of stuff available but it is my choice to buy it and take it home. Just the same with us, God has made available the free gift of salvation but we have to chose to confess our need for Christ and receive salvation. Salvation was waiting for those that are in hell, they just didn’t chose to recieve it. Yes, our sin was crucified with Jesus on the cross and at salvation we receive a new identity that does say that we are holy, but we are still human and sin. We are to constantly be putting off the old ways and putting on the new. We are to be renewing our minds to the truth of God’s Word. God continues to break my heart over the sin that I still wrestle with but I know it was paid for and as He continues to work in my heart, my desire is to be more and more obedient and to make the right choices that honor Him. Hopefully all that made sense.
Comment by Mel — September 17, 2006 @ 1:21 am
I thought about how to comment - and found that about 6,000 more paradoxes flood my mind and I got discouraged all the more. All I can think is, “I don’t like paradoxes”.
Comment by Di — September 29, 2006 @ 10:31 am
Hi Eric, your feelings are something that has haunted many, starting with the apostle Paul. (Check out Romans 7:7-25) God took a major risk in creating beings that can choose whether or not to love and obey him.
One third of angels chose to rebel, spurred by Satan, and when they were defeated, Satan in his rage turned upon the innocent race of humanity and succeded in corrupting it. Even if he hadn’t, though, humans had the freedom and the potential to sin, and I think we probably would have, but this is speculation, of course.
As a result of our sin, all of us are born spiritually dead, with a completely depraved nature that is incapable of pleasing God. It therefore became necessary for Christ to save us, only a perfect human being could be sacrificed instead of us, to satisfy the justice of God. Jesus died for ALL sins: past, present and future. Billions of people are needlessly condemned, because they reject Jesus. All the Bible requires for salvation to occurr is for a person to accept the forgiveness and eternal life Jesus conquered for us.
All the saved are saints and perfect before God, the Bible says that he has forgotten our sins, and thrown them to the bottom of the sea, never more to be remembered. He has also given us the mind of Christ, and His Spirit to give us power to live sinlessly.
Nevertheless, we are still free to choose whether or not to do so. Often we choose to sin, by habit, accident, or even intentionally. God’s grace covers EVERY sin, and our salvation is never in danger.
What is at stake is our role in the kingdom. If we cleanse ourselves from sin, we will be used as noble vessels. If not, we will become obstacles to God’s work. Also at stake is our perception of God. Our sins don’t allow us to enjoy God’s love and fellowship, not because he turns away from us, but because we turn away from Him. Therefore we must repent in order to enjoy his loving relationship with us again. His love is never altered, it is our capacity to understand and enjoy it. Just like when you eat something really awful, everything you eat afterward will have it’s aftertaste.
Ephesians 1 and 2 talk about the process of salvation, and predestination: it says we were chosen before the creation of the world. How did God choose us without violating free will? He chose everyone who would choose to accept him. Many were called, in fact everyone! But few are chosen, why? because they rejected God. It’s kinda like the parable in which a rich man invites several of his friends to a feast, but they don’t show up, so he opens the invitation to everyone.
Comment by Aaron Ortiz — October 2, 2006 @ 6:36 pm